00:01:00 Perhaps we can have a few minutes on this, maybe,

00:01:02 as we leave on this subject.

00:01:05 Well, you know, Paul, this is a general program

00:01:09 of the American Chemical Society to have, for the archives,

00:01:16 recorded videotapes of outstanding scientists

00:01:20 that are chemists.

00:01:22 And it's my privilege today to have this honor

00:01:26 to chat with you.

00:01:29 And it's my privilege to be with you.

00:01:32 Thank you.

00:01:33 I know that you were born in Illinois,

00:01:40 and I'd like to ask you a little bit about your background,

00:01:47 your family and parents.

00:01:50 Were they interested in, at an early age,

00:01:56 in making certain that you went to college?

00:02:01 Yes.

00:02:02 That was almost a, it was assumed

00:02:08 that I would go to college, as it was assumed

00:02:12 for my brother and sisters.

00:02:16 And had they a college education, your parents?

00:02:21 Well, they came from a rural background in Ohio.

00:02:27 And my mother pioneered in her family

00:02:34 to go away from home to college.

00:02:37 She actually went to Manchester College,

00:02:39 where I went years later, for a year or two,

00:02:43 and then became a teacher, a one-room school teacher

00:02:48 in the 1890s.

00:02:56 My father also became a teacher, but at that time

00:02:59 it sufficed to go to high school, which he did nearby.

00:03:04 He studied privately.

00:03:07 One might say he was self-educated.

00:03:10 He studied first.

00:03:12 He wanted to be a doctor, but gave that up.

00:03:16 And after trying various things from those new devices known

00:03:23 as telephones, installing them, he turned to become a minister.

00:03:29 I see.

00:03:29 But there was this feeling in the family

00:03:33 of educational endeavor and the importance of education.

00:03:37 That's quite clear.

00:03:38 Yes.

00:03:38 In the generation of my parents, in the generation

00:03:42 of my parents, that feeling was strong.

00:03:46 My father had been singled out by his father, my grandfather,

00:03:51 that he should be educated, because he

00:03:54 was born with a club foot, and therefore wasn't

00:03:58 very useful on the farm.

00:03:59 So he had to be educated.

00:04:02 But earlier than that, it was a farm background,

00:04:04 going back several generations in Ohio and Pennsylvania,

00:04:08 on both sides, actually.

00:04:10 So your first exposure to science

00:04:12 then was probably high school or secondary school.

00:04:15 In high school, yes.

00:04:17 In high school in Elgin, Illinois.

00:04:20 Was this a large high school?

00:04:21 Yes.

00:04:22 Large for those times, about 1,000 students.

00:04:26 And did they have experimental facilities?

00:04:29 Some, yes.

00:04:30 I didn't actually take chemistry.

00:04:32 I took general science and physics,

00:04:35 both with laboratories.

00:04:39 Simple, of course, but nevertheless,

00:04:42 both courses included laboratory.

00:04:44 It was a good high school.

00:04:46 Were there any of those teachers that

00:04:51 stand out in your mind as somewhat stimulating for you?

00:04:56 Not particularly in science, more than other fields.

00:04:59 I don't know that I had, academically, I

00:05:04 hadn't focused my interest on science.

00:05:09 Although, I was an avid reader of popular, what was it,

00:05:13 popular mechanics?

00:05:15 Popular mechanics.

00:05:16 And what was the science?

00:05:18 Popular science, also.

00:05:20 That opened my eyes to some aspects of science,

00:05:26 perhaps in a rather colored or fashion.

00:05:34 But I think it was there that I first really

00:05:38 became interested in science.

00:05:42 That's interesting, because I can

00:05:44 remember popular mechanics, I think it was called.

00:05:49 It even had some color in it.

00:05:51 And I can very well see that that might have some effect on.

00:05:59 Science fiction.

00:06:00 I went on tours of the universe through those magazines.

00:06:04 I suppose, then, that Manchester College was your choice

00:06:10 because of your mother's interaction with Manchester.

00:06:12 Yes.

00:06:13 Well, it is a religious school, the religious persuasion

00:06:20 of my family.

00:06:22 And it was sort of assumed, or I was encouraged or pressured,

00:06:25 almost, gently, by subtle measures,

00:06:29 but nevertheless, to go there.

00:06:33 And chemistry took my fancy from the start.

00:06:37 Here, I saw the possibility to realize the experiences

00:06:46 that I had through reading magazines and so on.

00:06:52 And also, an extension of my high school background.

00:06:56 Were your parents able to pay your tuition and board,

00:07:00 or did you also work part time?

00:07:02 I worked part time.

00:07:05 Those were depression years.

00:07:06 Rather, the depression years were to follow.

00:07:11 Yes, my parents paid my college.

00:07:15 Graduate school was another matter.

00:07:16 That was in the depression years.

00:07:20 But I also worked, worked summers and part time

00:07:22 during college, which was commonplace.

00:07:25 How many students were at Manchester College?

00:07:28 Between about 600, 650.

00:07:31 Would you have a compulsory chapel in the morning?

00:07:34 Oh, yeah.

00:07:34 Even a cold winter morning.

00:07:36 Even on a cold winter morning, yeah.

00:07:38 Oh, there were ways of getting out of it.

00:07:40 And I must say, I made the most of those.

00:07:47 Was the, you say chemistry interested you

00:07:51 almost from the beginning.

00:07:52 That must have meant that there was a good teacher involved.

00:07:56 Yes, absolutely.

00:07:57 There was a very good teacher.

00:08:01 Carl W. Hull, H-O-L-L, was the teacher,

00:08:08 and a very inspiring teacher in his quiet way.

00:08:15 A teacher that demanded a great deal of his students.

00:08:19 Chemistry had the reputation there of being a different,

00:08:24 the chemistry courses were considered difficult,

00:08:27 but challenging.

00:08:28 And they did attract good students, good from the college.

00:08:34 And the college has a record, was already

00:08:39 making a record at that time, an unusual record

00:08:42 of graduates going in, of graduates from the college

00:08:46 going on with graduate work.

00:08:49 At that time, in a school of that type,

00:08:51 there would be something like general chemistry,

00:08:54 analytical chemistry, organic chemistry,

00:08:56 and physical chemistry courses separate,

00:08:58 or were some of those?

00:08:59 The separate ones were general chemistry, analytical chemistry,

00:09:03 and organic chemistry.

00:09:05 There was no physical chemistry.

00:09:07 It was incorporated in a limited extent in general chemistry.

00:09:12 To a very limited extent, or it was something

00:09:14 you studied on your own.

00:09:17 And there was encouragement to extend beyond courses

00:09:21 into self-education, which I did to some extent.

00:09:29 Did your teacher himself run the laboratories too, or did he not?

00:09:37 There was a man named Martin who ran the laboratories.

00:09:44 And he, too, had qualities of inspiring

00:09:47 and students in a somewhat different way.

00:09:52 For the most part, he ran the laboratories

00:09:54 and did some of the lecturing in general chemistry,

00:09:57 but not to me.

00:10:02 Then how did it come about that Ohio State expressed,

00:10:12 were you pushed in the direction of Ohio State?

00:10:14 Definitely.

00:10:16 Carl Hull, or Professor Hull, had received his Ph.D.

00:10:20 at Ohio State, so where else was there to go?

00:10:23 Now, he wasn't so narrow-minded, but he

00:10:25 had his connections at Ohio State,

00:10:28 and that facilitated my getting in.

00:10:31 With a minimal background in chemistry, only three,

00:10:33 I'd finished my college in three years.

00:10:38 Perhaps because there wasn't much more

00:10:41 to offer beyond three years.

00:10:46 At the college at that time.

00:10:48 And Dr. Hull encouraged me to go on and graduate early,

00:10:52 go into graduate work, which may or may not

00:10:55 have been a good thing.

00:10:56 How did it work at Ohio State at that time?

00:10:59 Did you have qualifying examinations

00:11:02 or orientation examinations?

00:11:03 Oh, yes, examinations.

00:11:05 And the struggle was so difficult,

00:11:08 it wasn't certain that I'd make it beyond the first year.

00:11:12 And that was probably because of the physical chemistry

00:11:16 lack.

00:11:16 The lack of physical chemistry, and the level of the coursework

00:11:24 was inferior to that of many schools.

00:11:28 Although good, the competition wasn't

00:11:32 as keen as in a school of higher academic standing.

00:11:38 For your first year lecture courses at Ohio State,

00:11:41 do you remember any of the professors involved?

00:11:44 Oh, yes, there was Henderson in inorganic chemistry,

00:11:48 Board in advanced organic chemistry,

00:11:52 Mack in physical chemistry.

00:11:56 Those were the principals in chemistry.

00:11:59 And in the course of that year, I

00:12:01 realized how deficient my mathematics had been.

00:12:04 There was a gap in mathematics between high school,

00:12:07 where it was very good, and the mathematics

00:12:11 was very poor at Manchester College.

00:12:14 It did me almost no good.

00:12:16 So I had to catch up on the mathematics

00:12:17 through courses and private study.

00:12:22 Did you have a teaching assistantship?

00:12:24 Yes, not the first year, second year.

00:12:27 Second and third years, I believe it was.

00:12:29 And was that in freshman chemistry or physics?

00:12:32 Freshman chemistry, the first year, second year,

00:12:36 I was offered the opportunity to assist

00:12:38 in physical chemistry, which was a splendid experience for me

00:12:42 to strengthen a part of my background that had been weak.

00:12:47 Well, you're such a good mathematician,

00:12:49 at least from my point of view, that this is very revealing

00:12:53 that you had to catch up on all that math in graduate school.

00:12:58 Well, it made it more difficult.

00:13:07 I think I had a natural liking of mathematics.

00:13:11 And that would have been the view of my high school

00:13:15 teachers, I think.

00:13:16 And I took all the math I could take in high school.

00:13:19 But then there was that lapse through college

00:13:22 where I learned very little math through the college years

00:13:26 and then tried to pick it up again in graduate school.

00:13:30 In graduate school, when did you elect to do a thesis

00:13:37 and with whom?

00:13:39 Well, you know, I did a organic master's thesis

00:13:45 with Professor Bourd, the late Professor Bourd,

00:13:50 on organic synthesis.

00:13:53 I don't know whether you knew that, but it's a fact.

00:13:56 I knew you had somewhere.

00:13:57 I didn't realize it was a master's thesis.

00:13:59 I really wanted to go into physical chemistry.

00:14:02 But I wasn't sure at the beginning of my graduate career

00:14:06 with all of the deficiencies and so on

00:14:08 whether I could hack it.

00:14:11 And Professor Bourd kindly took me

00:14:14 on as a graduate student for a master's degree.

00:14:17 And then I had a great deal of respect for him.

00:14:23 And even I liked him personally.

00:14:26 So it was with some pain that I had

00:14:29 to tell him that I had decided to switch

00:14:32 to physical chemistry.

00:14:34 He took this graciously, being the man that he was.

00:14:39 And then I worked with Harry L. Johnston in physical chemistry,

00:14:45 or perhaps the closest thing we had then to chemical physics.

00:14:48 What was the thesis topic?

00:14:50 Photochemistry.

00:14:51 Photochemistry of nitric oxide.

00:14:54 That's a rather topic that's on the minds of lots of people

00:14:58 in the last 10 years.

00:14:59 That's right.

00:15:02 Have you ever looked back and compared

00:15:07 to the current knowledge of photochemistry

00:15:12 of nitrogen oxides and related what

00:15:16 you were doing at that time to?

00:15:18 What's going on today?

00:15:21 Oh, I thought about it in passing.

00:15:22 But I've left that field so far, been away from it so long

00:15:26 that it's rather remote.

00:15:29 Although, I still think that this is a very interesting

00:15:33 area, the interaction of light and chemistry.

00:15:37 Did he publish the results of the thesis?

00:15:40 Oh, yes, the thesis was published.

00:15:44 Actually, there was another paper going out of the thesis.

00:15:50 This was an area, this was somewhat

00:15:51 removed from Johnston's main line of research, which

00:15:56 was good and bad.

00:15:58 It meant that I was more on my own.

00:16:01 On the other hand, I got less tangible assistance

00:16:07 in my research from him.

00:16:10 On balance, it was probably a good thing

00:16:13 that I had to be more on my own.

00:16:18 For those people who, and I think

00:16:20 we see this in our own students, who are superior,

00:16:26 whenever that does happen, I think

00:16:28 it is true that it allows them to develop

00:16:34 some self-reliance, which you wouldn't get any other way.

00:16:40 Now, this was 1934, I assume.

00:16:42 I got my PhD in 1934.

00:16:44 1934, and the DuPont Company was interviewing, or did you?

00:16:47 Yes.

00:16:49 And they came around just like they do now, probably,

00:16:52 or not quite.

00:16:54 In a somewhat, the tactics were a little different.

00:16:58 But they came around, yes.

00:17:01 The lab director personally came around.

00:17:06 Who was the lab director at that time?

00:17:08 Arthur P. Tanberg.

00:17:13 He did his own interviewing.

00:17:14 He would not trust the personnel department

00:17:17 to interview prospective staff for his laboratory.

00:17:24 He had two things.

00:17:26 He was very good at shorthand.

00:17:30 This is an art that has passed away,

00:17:34 even from most secretaries.

00:17:36 He could take down what you were saying in shorthand

00:17:39 as fast as you could talk it.

00:17:42 So he had that transcribed and had a record

00:17:45 of everything you said.

00:17:46 Besides, at odd intervals during the interview,

00:17:49 he'd bring out something that was new at that time,

00:17:52 called a candid camera, and take your picture.

00:17:59 So they made you an offer, obviously.

00:18:01 They made me an offer.

00:18:02 And did you have any other offers?

00:18:04 No.

00:18:06 Besides, the word was out that you better go to work for DuPont.

00:18:10 If you wanted a job.

00:18:12 I was envious of many others in the lab,

00:18:15 because I actually had a job.

00:18:16 I didn't have to go to some task like binding books

00:18:23 or something else that had nothing to do with science.

00:18:25 Was this what's now called Central Research?

00:18:27 Yes.

00:18:30 Then called the Chemical Department Experimental

00:18:32 Station.

00:18:33 It's now Central Research and Development.

00:18:37 Well, now you must have immediately

00:18:39 come into contact with people in that laboratory

00:18:43 that were interested in macromolecules.

00:18:48 Whereas prior to this time, you undoubtedly

00:18:54 had some interaction with people,

00:18:58 but relatively small until you went to DuPont.

00:19:02 I didn't know what a polymer was,

00:19:04 except that when I was working with Cecil Board, Professor

00:19:09 Board, Synthetic Organic Chemistry,

00:19:14 I was also his sort of private research assistant

00:19:17 at one stage.

00:19:18 And he asked me to distill some styrene in connection

00:19:25 with some experiments that he wanted to do.

00:19:29 And he said, this styrene has a tendency to polymerize.

00:19:36 And I had some vague notions of what that term might mean.

00:19:41 It was just a nuisance.

00:19:42 You had to distill it to get rid of that polymerized styrene,

00:19:47 whatever that really meant.

00:19:50 It was something to avoid.

00:19:52 That was about the extent of my knowledge

00:19:54 of polymers at that time.

00:19:58 I was advised, Dr. Tanberg wrote me

00:20:05 one of his cordial letters before I went,

00:20:08 reported at DuPont, 1st of July, 1934,

00:20:13 that they had decided to assign me to the group headed

00:20:17 by Wallace H. Carruthers.

00:20:20 And I knew very little about this.

00:20:23 I did look up some.

00:20:26 I was told that they had published.

00:20:28 I did look at the papers.

00:20:30 I knew very little of what was in store.

00:20:34 He was the influence, the person that

00:20:41 interested me in polymers.

00:20:46 His approach was rigorous science,

00:20:52 his approach to polymers.

00:20:54 And he imbued that into his people,

00:20:58 at least if they were at all receptive.

00:21:03 If they weren't, they didn't stay in his group very long.

00:21:07 And his conviction that these seemingly complicated

00:21:16 substances, polymers, could be approached scientifically.

00:21:24 Now Hill must have been in the group, too.

00:21:26 Julian Hill was in the group.

00:21:28 He was a senior member of the group headed

00:21:30 by Wallace Carruthers.

00:21:33 I, of course, didn't know Carruthers.

00:21:35 But I am told that he was, of course,

00:21:37 a very intense individual whose intensity

00:21:46 did permeate other people.

00:21:48 I mean, although he was not an extrovert or he was not.

00:21:51 Certainly not.

00:21:51 He was an introvert.

00:21:55 He was a very cultured person.

00:22:01 His view of science, to begin with, was broad.

00:22:05 Of course, he was, I think you would agree,

00:22:09 a very accomplished synthetic organic chemist.

00:22:13 His interest and appreciation of science ranged widely.

00:22:20 He also was conversant and interested

00:22:23 in literature and music and, to some extent, the arts.

00:22:28 He was a very cultured person, very refined,

00:22:33 privately charming.

00:22:36 And talking to a small group, no more than three people,

00:22:42 he was an excellent conversationalist.

00:22:44 But if the group became larger, he shut up like a clam.

00:22:47 The classroom was an ethno for him.

00:22:50 He did not like the classroom, unfortunately.

00:22:56 He had this conviction that, yes, polymers are complicated,

00:23:00 but they can be treated and understood scientifically.

00:23:06 Well, it was an extremely important concept, particularly

00:23:09 at that time, because there were so many organic chemists that

00:23:13 were afraid of them, in a sense.

00:23:17 Not only organic chemists, Charlie, but others.

00:23:20 Just chemists.

00:23:22 Now, when and then what?

00:23:23 You stayed there about three years?

00:23:26 Four years.

00:23:27 Four years, and then went to the University of Cincinnati.

00:23:30 Carruthers died in 1937, and that

00:23:32 was one of the most profoundly shocking events of my life.

00:23:41 His sudden death, it just pulled the rug out

00:23:46 from under my hopes and aspirations and plans,

00:23:50 to the extent that I had any.

00:23:53 And that changed the situation completely.

00:23:59 From my point of view of a lowly beginning scientist,

00:24:08 it was really for that reason.

00:24:09 That was the cause of my leaving DuPont.

00:24:16 He then allowed you to think about things

00:24:25 such as chain mobility and matters

00:24:30 that would ordinarily not be the organic chemist's purview

00:24:35 in a situation of that sort.

00:24:37 He not only allowed me, he encouraged me to do this.

00:24:43 He encouraged me.

00:24:45 And the fact that his fort was a little different,

00:24:51 oh well, or let's put it the other way,

00:24:53 that my inclinations were somewhat different from his.

00:24:58 I was not a synthetic organic chemist.

00:25:00 He didn't try to make me one.

00:25:02 He felt that he wanted to have a physical chemist

00:25:09 in his group.

00:25:09 I was his physical chemist.

00:25:11 It was an extraordinary opportunity,

00:25:13 I realize now in retrospect.

00:25:16 He came to me one day, and during my first year there,

00:25:22 he was most effective in coming into the lab

00:25:25 or inviting you into his office informally and sitting down

00:25:27 and just chatting about some thoughts

00:25:29 he was having about this and that.

00:25:31 And it might range well beyond his immediate concerns

00:25:35 with synthesis mechanisms.

00:25:38 And we even got on to molecular distributions.

00:25:44 And he said, you know, this is a field, the polymer field

00:25:49 is an area where it is my belief that mathematics

00:25:53 could be applied.

00:25:54 Now, he had very limited capabilities in mathematics.

00:25:59 Mine were limited, too.

00:26:01 I mean, his even more.

00:26:03 But he had the appreciation of this, you see.

00:26:06 And he conveyed this appreciation

00:26:10 to me, that youngster in his lab.

00:26:14 That, of course, had a great influence.

00:26:17 And when I set about to consider the statistics

00:26:22 of molecular distributions and told him

00:26:23 what I was starting to do, he said, that's fine.

00:26:27 And he discussed it with me.

00:26:29 He didn't say it's fine.

00:26:30 He discussed it with me.

00:26:31 And it went without saying that he approved of this.

00:26:35 So I continued.

00:26:38 So it was your concern, then, that you would not

00:26:41 be allowed to continue in this vein

00:26:43 if without Carruthers being there.

00:26:47 I suddenly realized how much of a shield he had been

00:26:50 and how much of an influence he had been when he was gone.

00:26:54 Now, then, this position at the University of Cincinnati,

00:26:57 I don't know very much about that.

00:27:00 Well, that was a small laboratory

00:27:10 launched by one of the administrators,

00:27:16 I've forgotten his name, at the University of Cincinnati,

00:27:20 who was interested in cooperative education.

00:27:26 Students should come and work six months,

00:27:30 be six months at the university in courses

00:27:32 and some research, perhaps, and then

00:27:36 six months in an industry.

00:27:38 And, of course, the industry should pay the whole bill.

00:27:41 But this was Dean Schneider.

00:27:44 Dean Schneider.

00:27:45 So DuPont would pay for this.

00:27:47 No, no, no.

00:27:48 I severed connections with DuPont.

00:27:50 They hired me there.

00:27:51 I was a member of the staff of the basic science laboratory,

00:27:54 it was called.

00:27:55 It was Schneider's idea.

00:27:57 It's a little thing operated on a shoestring.

00:28:01 But it did provide me a small lab

00:28:04 and very little help from students.

00:28:08 But I could come in weekends and do experiments

00:28:10 and do what I pleased at least part of the time.

00:28:15 Do you remember, in a rather general term,

00:28:18 what you were then concentrating on at that time

00:28:23 at Cincinnati or had begun?

00:28:28 Condensation polymerization kinetics,

00:28:35 statistics of reaction of pairs, if you remember that.

00:28:39 Pairs on a linear chain, pairwise connections,

00:28:44 a subject that, to my interest, had

00:28:46 been alerted by our good friend Speed Marble.

00:28:53 Viscosities of melts, and then gelation theory

00:28:59 came up, which required a higher level of mathematical approach.

00:29:09 That started and largely finished it.

00:29:12 Was there anybody else interested in gelation theory

00:29:15 at that time?

00:29:16 Scarcely anyone.

00:29:17 Scarcely anyone.

00:29:19 Carothers had been interested in it.

00:29:21 And had discussed it, the stoichiometry of gelation,

00:29:30 the stoichiometry of forming a network,

00:29:35 but without the statistics.

00:29:37 And it's all important to get the statistics

00:29:39 into that problem.

00:29:43 Yeah.

00:29:45 Well, then.

00:29:46 I think probably Carothers introduced me

00:29:50 to that problem.

00:29:51 But just the stoichiometric premises

00:29:58 of forming the necessary number of intermolecular linkages

00:30:02 to have a network.

00:30:03 All right.

00:30:06 So you spent two years there.

00:30:07 Yes.

00:30:09 And then went to the ESO labs in London, I guess it was.

00:30:12 That's right.

00:30:14 The war was, the clouds of war were approaching.

00:30:17 And the outlook for universities was students and so on were.

00:30:25 Grim.

00:30:25 Was grim, yeah.

00:30:29 Well, the ESO, of course, had a great deal of input

00:30:36 into the, well, because of their patent agreements

00:30:41 with the IG Farben industry, the Boone S patents

00:30:47 were available to the community who had immediately

00:30:51 started to work on them even before 41.

00:30:55 But where did, tell me a little bit about the ESO labs

00:30:59 at that time and where you were involved in.

00:31:02 Well, there was an engineering division,

00:31:06 although that may not, there were two divisions,

00:31:09 a large engineering division interested or concerned

00:31:13 with processes, mainly processes.

00:31:18 This was called the ESO Laboratories.

00:31:20 ESO Laboratories, which was the research arm,

00:31:23 later became ESO Research and Engineering and so on, Exxon,

00:31:25 and now it's something else, I don't know.

00:31:28 And then there was a chemical division.

00:31:29 There was an engineering division, large,

00:31:31 and a smaller chemical division under Per K. Froelich,

00:31:34 who about that time was president of the,

00:31:37 was elected president of the American Chemical Society.

00:31:41 And synthetic rubber was very much under consideration

00:31:46 because of the threats posed by the war

00:31:50 and the urgency of acquiring independence of sources

00:31:57 abroad, natural rubber.

00:32:00 And there were several lines of work,

00:32:02 both on the Bunas and on the Butyl,

00:32:05 which was sort of an indigenous development within ESO.

00:32:09 Was Thomas there then?

00:32:10 Yes, Thomas, Sparks.

00:32:14 Yes, I worked with them.

00:32:16 And there was two lines, the Buna type and the Butyl,

00:32:22 going side by side.

00:32:27 And I worked to some extent on both.

00:32:30 And was there an atmosphere there

00:32:34 that was conducive to a learning process?

00:32:43 I ask this question in the vein that I often

00:32:47 tell some of my students who first go to work for a large,

00:32:54 you weren't a new student, but a company like General Electric

00:32:59 or, let's say, Smith Kodak at Rochester.

00:33:05 You're going to learn a lot more in the first two years

00:33:08 than you're going to give because there

00:33:11 are a lot of good people there.

00:33:14 I'm afraid to say that about these two labs

00:33:16 because I know them pretty well.

00:33:18 I ask the question in that context,

00:33:20 was there an intellectual environment

00:33:25 that allowed people to move in new directions and so on?

00:33:37 There was a moderate degree of freedom in research.

00:33:44 I would say, considering the pressures of the times,

00:33:51 external pressures of the national situation,

00:33:56 rather, in thinking back, a surprising degree of freedom.

00:34:03 There wasn't a great deal of opportunity

00:34:05 because we had a rather heavy burden of reports

00:34:09 and conferences and so on.

00:34:11 It was hard to find time in the regular workday

00:34:14 to do much research.

00:34:16 But there wasn't a kind of heavy hand

00:34:21 of day-to-day supervision that required one

00:34:24 to pursue a particular line.

00:34:32 For the time, I think it was a fairly good research

00:34:39 environment.

00:34:40 Bear in mind, this was essentially wartime.

00:34:42 Sure.

00:34:44 Well, then you went on to Goodyear.

00:34:48 And I don't know why I say this, but I've always

00:34:52 felt that, instinctively, from, I suppose,

00:34:58 just talking with a few people and knowing

00:35:01 a little bit about what you did, that it was a very fruitful

00:35:04 time at Goodyear in terms of many of the things you did.

00:35:09 Am I off base there?

00:35:11 I think it was.

00:35:12 I think it was a very fruitful time.

00:35:15 They wanted to start a group on what they

00:35:20 called fundamental research.

00:35:22 It was a catchphrase, perhaps.

00:35:24 But they were prepared and did hire a number of people.

00:35:31 I had a group of about eight or 10.

00:35:36 I believe there were six PhDs in the group, roughly

00:35:40 mean of during those years of about six.

00:35:45 With a lot of freedom, a great deal

00:35:47 of freedom of choice of the problems we worked on.

00:35:52 There was the, it was made evident

00:35:57 that we were, the lab director was fervently

00:36:03 hoping we'd come up with something

00:36:05 that they could cash in on, of course.

00:36:08 But there was a good deal of freedom.

00:36:10 And we worked on, I think, as some of the publications

00:36:15 will show, we were able to carry on some scientific work

00:36:19 in large measure.

00:36:22 Well, I have this.

00:36:23 I think the time was good.

00:36:24 The time was good, plus the environment

00:36:28 that they had for you and this group.

00:36:32 I just had the feeling it was a good time, a classic cliche.

00:36:40 But that may be my own.

00:36:41 But they were expecting a payout.

00:36:43 And as the years went by, the number of additional years

00:36:49 before the payout became shorter and shorter.

00:36:52 I think they got the payout, but this

00:36:54 isn't the time to discuss that.

00:36:56 That came years later, perhaps even up until now.

00:37:01 Who first approached you with the idea of going to Cornell?

00:37:07 Oh, Peter Debye, of course.

00:37:12 First, he invited me on behalf of his department,

00:37:16 or so it was phrased, to take the Baker Lectureship

00:37:21 for the spring term of 1948, which I was delighted to accept.

00:37:28 This was a tremendous opportunity, I felt,

00:37:34 to take on a prestigious Baker Lectureship.

00:37:36 The first draft as part of your book.

00:37:39 Well, I was just beginning to think about a book.

00:37:41 And of course, they said it would

00:37:42 be nice if you'd write a book.

00:37:45 Although, in the background, Debye

00:37:49 had gone there as Baker Lecturer first.

00:37:52 And he had never written a book, so he

00:37:55 set a very bad precedent in the history of the Baker Lectures.

00:38:01 So it was a bit awkward for him to put the pressure on me

00:38:04 to write a book.

00:38:06 Anyway, the book was an outgrowth of these lectures,

00:38:09 in large measure.

00:38:11 But Debye did contact you.

00:38:13 He invited me there.

00:38:16 And I was there for the full spring term,

00:38:21 coming about the 1st of February, extending to June.

00:38:26 And in spite of going to my lectures, some of them

00:38:32 and so on, in spite of all this,

00:38:36 they invited me to join the faculty.

00:38:39 So I thought it over not very long, and then accepted.

00:38:46 That?

00:38:46 To join the faculty permanently, I guess.

00:38:50 Let's see, it was in 48.

00:38:53 That was in 48.

00:38:55 And Debye was still active.

00:38:59 Oh, indeed.

00:39:01 He was the greatest moving force in that department.

00:39:06 Very active.

00:39:09 Who else would you interact with at that time

00:39:12 in the department, besides Debye?

00:39:16 Well, Debye was the only one working in the polymer field.

00:39:21 But of course, he had a core with him.

00:39:24 There was Art Bicke, A.M. Bicke, the late, sorry to say,

00:39:30 Art Bicke, who later became executive vice

00:39:36 president of General Electric.

00:39:39 A remarkable man.

00:39:43 And there were a number of many others

00:39:46 that came and went through the Debye group.

00:39:51 And I had postdocs.

00:39:54 Tom Fox came with me from Goodyear.

00:39:57 He had worked with me at Goodyear.

00:40:00 And there were a succession of others

00:40:04 there that worked with me as postdocs.

00:40:06 On the faculty, on the senior faculty,

00:40:11 it was really only Debye and myself

00:40:14 who were engaged, or engaged predominantly

00:40:18 in the polymer field.

00:40:21 Harold Suraga, a very distinguished biophysical

00:40:29 polymer chemist.

00:40:31 Perhaps that characterizes him.

00:40:34 Was a junior faculty member at the time.

00:40:35 And we interacted and actually co-authored papers.

00:40:41 And I had many, many interesting discussions

00:40:44 with Harold Suraga, an association that

00:40:48 continues to this day.

00:40:49 The, well, Harold has certainly made his own mark

00:41:01 and really does contribute to that department

00:41:07 in a very large way, anyway.

00:41:12 Excuse me, Kirkwood had left Cornell about one year

00:41:16 before I went there.

00:41:18 So I did not, was not a colleague

00:41:22 of Kirkwood in the same department, unfortunately.

00:41:28 Now, then an attractive offer came along

00:41:31 at Ben Mellon Institute.

00:41:37 I'm not quite sure you were executive director

00:41:39 or exactly how that was.

00:41:42 Supposed to head up the research.

00:41:44 I know Tom went with you.

00:41:45 Tom went with me.

00:41:48 And just how did that work?

00:41:51 I'm not absolutely certain I have a.

00:41:53 Well, that, again, the Mellon Institute

00:41:58 needed a new direction.

00:42:01 And they professed to have decided,

00:42:04 the board of the Mellon Institute,

00:42:08 that they were persuaded to turn their direction

00:42:13 to fundamental and more basic research away

00:42:18 from their time, their traditional fellowship

00:42:23 program, which was a very special kind

00:42:28 of industrial institute relationship, which

00:42:32 had prospered in earlier years, but probably, certainly

00:42:36 had outlived its usefulness by that time.

00:42:41 And they were persuaded to go into basic research,

00:42:45 fundamental research, and to abandon this.

00:42:48 But they didn't, couldn't quite, what they wanted to do,

00:43:00 the soul was willing, but the flesh was weak.

00:43:03 Well, they had the problem, probably,

00:43:04 of supporting the laboratory with some industrial grants

00:43:09 and contracts that were part of the old fellow.

00:43:12 Proprietary contracts of the hardest kind, in a way.

00:43:21 Really, the fellowships were operated as enterprises,

00:43:26 insulated, or very often insulated,

00:43:28 from the rest of the institute, but openly tied

00:43:32 to the industry, the industrial sponsor.

00:43:35 The connection there was back and forth was open.

00:43:38 The connection within the institute was restricted.

00:43:40 And that's an unsatisfactory arrangement

00:43:44 in any institution, obviously.

00:43:47 Many obvious drawbacks.

00:43:48 So the institute had to take a new direction.

00:43:52 But there were counter forces within the management

00:43:57 and all of the mellon industrial complex

00:44:06 of diverse industries.

00:44:11 How large a group was working with you personally

00:44:15 when you were at Mellon?

00:44:17 Oh, a rather small group.

00:44:18 I only had on the order of two or three people

00:44:20 working with me, because of the administrative responsibilities

00:44:24 that I carried.

00:44:27 I was determined to keep a small effort going,

00:44:30 but it was difficult. It was difficult.

00:44:34 And when it became apparent that the institute directors

00:44:38 were not prepared to abandon the fellowship program wholly

00:44:45 and turn to basic research, it became apparent

00:44:53 that my services were not altogether welcome.

00:44:57 As you look back on that period, where you were at Goodyear,

00:45:10 then Cornell, and then Mellon, from your own intellectual

00:45:18 satisfaction, which may not be a very good question,

00:45:25 which did you find the most attractive?

00:45:28 Cornell.

00:45:30 Goodyear, Cornell, Mellon.

00:45:32 Cornell, unquestionably.

00:45:37 The Mellon Institute position then

00:45:46 changed to Stanford, where you have been ever since.

00:45:49 Mm-hmm.

00:45:54 So you were chairman there for five years.

00:45:56 I did my turn.

00:45:57 You did your turn.

00:45:58 I did my turn.

00:46:00 That was in the era when Stanford

00:46:02 was moving from department heads, who ran the departments

00:46:08 and served year after year after year indefinitely,

00:46:12 to a rotating chairmanship.

00:46:13 I like to say that my principal contribution as chairman

00:46:18 was to impart a quantum of angular momentum to the job

00:46:25 so that it rotated.

00:46:27 And it's been rotating ever since.

00:46:30 At Stanford, who collaborated with you

00:46:35 in terms of the faculty primarily?

00:46:38 Who did you have the most interaction with there?

00:46:42 Well, the faculty interaction has been rather limited.

00:46:48 Simply because of the non-interest.

00:46:50 Non-interest, yeah.

00:46:53 Since about the time I retired, Curtis Frank

00:46:58 came to the chemical engineering department,

00:47:00 which is very close to chemistry at Stanford,

00:47:03 and has instituted a program in polymers.

00:47:11 Really, a scientific program.

00:47:12 It happens to be in the chemical engineering department.

00:47:15 But the chemical engineering department

00:47:17 is not quite tolerant or agreeable to science, let's say.

00:47:20 So there is Curt Frank's efforts.

00:47:24 And Bob Pecora, I've had some interactions

00:47:30 with Bob Pecora in chemistry.

00:47:34 Interested mainly in applications

00:47:37 of light scattering, including applications

00:47:39 of light scattering, of inelastic light scattering,

00:47:43 I should say, to polymers.

00:47:47 I don't think there's any question, Paul,

00:47:50 that anyone active in the polymer field

00:47:55 will agree that there's no one that has really

00:48:00 made the number of major outstanding contributions

00:48:05 to so many parts of polymer science.

00:48:11 I don't say that to, I say that with a great deal

00:48:16 of conviction, because I think I have

00:48:19 enough of a background to know it.

00:48:22 As you look back on this exciting career, which

00:48:26 is still continuing, who from the outside

00:48:36 stimulated you, or in your judgment,

00:48:41 made strong contributions in those areas

00:48:45 that you were also interested in?

00:48:47 I mean, are there any one, two, three, four people

00:48:51 that you feel had an intellectual influence on you

00:48:56 that were not in these groups that we've

00:48:58 been talking about, where you were working?

00:49:05 Of course, Dubai had an influence, a great influence.

00:49:08 But we've already mentioned him.

00:49:12 Other names that come to mind, or people who come to mind

00:49:16 are Maurice Huggins, the late Maurice Huggins,

00:49:21 I regret to say.

00:49:23 I would like to comment on my relationships with Huggins.

00:49:28 Walter Stockmeyer, who you know, has made many contributions,

00:49:37 important contributions in the polymer field.

00:49:43 Of course, there are many others worldwide

00:49:46 that we could mention.

00:49:53 Leo Mandelkern was a collaborator back

00:49:57 in the early days at Cornell, and did monumental work then

00:50:05 and since.

00:50:06 And we've maintained contact, and occasionally

00:50:10 have collaborated in research over the years since.

00:50:17 There are many others.

00:50:18 One must not underestimate the contributions of others.

00:50:25 We all interact with our contemporaries,

00:50:28 and sometimes with those who live before us to their works.

00:50:36 These interactions and contributions

00:50:39 are enormous.

00:50:41 I want to counter some of the kind words

00:50:44 that you said, perhaps more than deserve,

00:50:48 but that we're not supposed to argue

00:50:50 about this at the present time.

00:50:54 I might mention, if you like, I could comment on Huggins.

00:50:59 You know, there's a theory which is ineptly

00:51:03 named the Flory-Huggins theory.

00:51:04 It should be the Huggins-Flory theory.

00:51:06 I've said this a number of times.

00:51:09 Because he was just a hair ahead of me in that.

00:51:14 He published the first paper.

00:51:18 And I think back of what might have come out

00:51:21 of this that didn't.

00:51:23 And I sometimes wonder, in the personal relationship,

00:51:26 what might have happened and didn't.

00:51:28 And I wonder why.

00:51:30 Huggins was, who as you know, died in December this year.

00:51:39 I was about 13 or so, 12 or 13 years my senior.

00:51:47 He was an established scientist when I was a beginner.

00:51:51 And I recall a colloid symposium held at Cornell,

00:51:55 by coincidence, long before I went there,

00:51:58 or a number of years before.

00:51:59 It was the summer of 1941.

00:52:02 I gave a paper on gelation theory, network theory.

00:52:06 He gave one on the thermodynamics of solutions.

00:52:08 And I was horrified, because I'm

00:52:12 trying to grappling to get a foothold in this field.

00:52:17 There were two things I was pushing.

00:52:18 One was network gelation theory, which

00:52:21 I'd chosen to speak on there at this colloid symposium

00:52:26 in honor of Bancroft, who had been at Cornell,

00:52:31 had then retired, and solution thermodynamics.

00:52:37 Then I had it worked out.

00:52:40 Perhaps I had a paper drafted, ready to go,

00:52:43 or perhaps already submitted.

00:52:44 I don't remember.

00:52:47 And Huggins gave his account, what to do.

00:52:51 So I approached Huggins privately.

00:52:57 I felt I had to tell him, because I

00:52:59 was going to publish, and I didn't

00:53:00 want to be in the position of appearing,

00:53:02 that I had tried to scoop what he had presented orally

00:53:05 at this meeting.

00:53:07 And I told him that I had been working on the same thing.

00:53:12 And contrary to the impressions that many people

00:53:15 had of Huggins from his demeanor in meetings, open meetings,

00:53:21 he was most gracious.

00:53:24 He said, well, I'm very interested to hear this.

00:53:28 And I'm interested that you have similar results.

00:53:33 Will you send me a copy of your paper?

00:53:37 And there was never a conflict of,

00:53:42 so far as I could see from my vantage point,

00:53:46 for priority in this field.

00:53:49 And that extended.

00:53:51 Now, later on, we differed.

00:53:53 We had strong scientific differences on some matters.

00:53:56 But we always, I think it's fair to say, remained friends.

00:54:02 And I am so pleased.

00:54:05 It's very gratifying to me to look back on this episode,

00:54:09 if you want to call it that, which was so graciously handled

00:54:15 by him.

00:54:17 I was the junior party.

00:54:19 He was the senior.

00:54:20 And it was he who set the pattern.

00:54:23 I hope I was equally fair in this field.

00:54:32 To switch the subject slightly, you, of course,

00:54:37 are very much aware, being a co-author of this report

00:54:42 on polymer science and engineering,

00:54:45 opportunities and needs, I realize

00:54:50 the general question is difficult to answer

00:54:57 from such a massive array of data and opinions.

00:55:05 I think it would be helpful, however,

00:55:07 if you might express yourself on the polymer education

00:55:12 chapter, chapter 5.

00:55:17 It's extremely difficult for me to ask a specific question,

00:55:21 because my own bias is all there.

00:55:29 But I would appreciate your comments on that chapter.

00:55:33 Well, can I make comments on polymer education?

00:55:37 Polymer education, and of course,

00:55:39 we reviewed it as far as the states are concerned,

00:55:42 but did compare it with Japan and Western Europe.

00:55:48 It's woefully inadequate in this country.

00:55:51 And in some other places.

00:56:00 Ideally, polymer science, or aspects of polymer science,

00:56:08 ought to be introduced, included, incorporated in,

00:56:14 interwoven in the core curriculum

00:56:18 courses, down to general chemistry.

00:56:23 And I don't mean down to beginning,

00:56:25 but beginning even with the most elementary chemistry.

00:56:27 And it can be.

00:56:30 There are aspects that can be.

00:56:33 It should, you can speak for this better than I,

00:56:38 but I think I know your opinions and that

00:56:42 of your colleagues in organic chemistry of polymers,

00:56:47 that this should be incorporated more effectively

00:56:51 and to a greater degree in the courses in organic chemistry.

00:56:56 And it should certainly be included

00:57:00 in the courses of physical chemistry, aspects of polymers.

00:57:05 I can be more specific if you want me to on the latter.

00:57:09 And I think that would be the most helpful or desirable move

00:57:19 if somehow we could overcome the inertia, the reluctance

00:57:24 of teachers in these courses to their reluctance

00:57:30 to incorporate material in their syllabus of course content.

00:57:36 How many of your students and postdoctoral people

00:57:39 are in the academic world now?

00:57:41 There's quite a few.

00:57:42 I'd have to count them up.

00:57:43 There are quite a few.

00:57:44 Quite a few, I would say, yeah.

00:57:46 Yeah.

00:57:49 You and Bill Marble have virtually

00:57:55 staffed the middle to older age group.

00:57:59 Carpenter, Eichinger in Washington, Wilma Olson

00:58:03 at Rutgers, and so on.

00:58:05 That's just a partial list.

00:58:10 But I think, well, I don't know that I fully

00:58:13 answered the question.

00:58:15 I think the most urgent need is to infuse polymer material

00:58:19 in core courses.

00:58:19 And this could be carried over to engineering.

00:58:21 And you've emphasized, that's emphasized in the chapter.

00:58:24 In the report.

00:58:24 In the report and in the chapter on education of that report.

00:58:32 This is not to deny the importance of curricula

00:58:36 addressing polymers specifically.

00:58:40 But beyond that, I think this is needed, too.

00:58:44 Right.

00:58:45 Well, this is a good place for us to break and have them

00:58:49 load the tape for the last half hour.

00:58:53 I guess we are supposed to keep talking.

00:58:56 Mm-hmm.

00:58:56 Mm-hmm.

00:58:57 Mm-hmm.

00:58:59 I.

00:58:59 That's fine.