00:00:00 What did you do during air raids?

00:00:04 Oh well there I was in charge of the firefighting for the college

00:00:10 and I had a bed in the basement and I had a squad of eight fire watchers

00:00:19 four of them were my research students and four were lab assistants

00:00:26 and I don't think we missed any of the air raids

00:00:28 we had a fairly lively time with incendiaries and quite a lot of near bombs too

00:00:35 and I think we had enough of it to get to that rather common frame of mind

00:00:41 where we really weren't too bothered you know just

00:00:45 when the next one comes we'll wait and see

00:00:50 And the work that you were doing during the war

00:00:55 did you continue with that after the war?

00:00:58 Yes, there was one more thing in the war which I didn't mention

00:01:05 which was rather important to me

00:01:08 In 1943, at the end of 1943

00:01:13 a gentleman called Mr Perrin came to see my professor, Professor Briscoe

00:01:19 and it turned out they wanted me to go to America

00:01:23 they couldn't tell me where, they couldn't tell me what for

00:01:28 and obviously I said I'd go

00:01:31 and I was taken down on a single coach train from Victoria to Poole

00:01:37 put on a flying boat, flown to Baltimore

00:01:41 and then down to Knoxville, Tennessee

00:01:43 for working on the project for making uranium isotopes separated

00:01:50 that was the Oak Ridge plant

00:01:57 where there were three projects

00:01:59 there was the uranium pile, there was a diffusion plant

00:02:03 and there was the electromagnetic plant for separating the isotopes

00:02:07 I went on to the electromagnetic plant

00:02:10 it was on a crash research project they had there

00:02:15 and I think they'd mostly run out of American chemists

00:02:19 that was the story I had anyway

00:02:22 and they were trying to bring in a few from England to top up

00:02:25 but it was a very interesting, very important problem

00:02:29 because the uranium isotopes had been

00:02:34 were being separated by volatilizing uranium tetrachloride

00:02:39 and passing it through the usual magnetic and electrical fields

00:02:44 as you get in the old Aston mass spectrograph

00:02:48 and collecting the separated beams in slots

00:02:52 so that you've got your uranium 235 in one and 238 in the other

00:02:59 and in this way you had tremendous scale up

00:03:08 I suppose at least 50 of these large stainless steel tanks

00:03:12 plugged into a circuit which was a continuous magnetic field

00:03:16 and each with its own pumping and electrical field arrangements

00:03:21 but what the physicists had forgotten was

00:03:24 that these tanks had to be opened for recycling the uranium chloride

00:03:30 when they were opened you've got HCL

00:03:34 you've got corrosion of the stainless steel welds

00:03:39 and the recycled stuff was contaminated

00:03:42 with just about every sealed transition element

00:03:45 which was fatal for the success of atomic bombs

00:03:49 so we had to do a crash program

00:03:52 on finding out how to clean up the uranium in this recycling

00:03:58 that was what I was concerned with

00:04:00 plus a little bit of fluorine chemistry

00:04:02 which was rather minor

00:04:04 plus some analysis of uranium

00:04:07 made very little impact on it

00:04:10 I think if I were honest

00:04:14 I would say that my main contribution

00:04:18 was using a special pass I had

00:04:20 which enabled me to go in and out of the security zone

00:04:23 without my baggage being searched

00:04:26 it was an alcohol free zone you see

00:04:29 and I had to go once a month to Washington

00:04:32 to be interviewed by Chadwick

00:04:35 and report my work to Chadwick

00:04:37 I always brought back a large hand case full of whiskey

00:04:41 for the people who were really doing the work

00:04:44 and my baggage wasn't searched

00:04:46 and I even was taken up occasionally to Kentucky

00:04:50 south of the security area

00:04:53 and the Americans would put me in the back seat

00:04:57 and say now you sit there professor you look very respectable

00:05:00 and we got up to the Colonel's Grill or whatever in Kentucky

00:05:03 they'd squeeze a bottle of whiskey

00:05:06 between the rather open springs of the back seat of the car

00:05:09 and I would be sat there with my special pass

00:05:12 and say you look so respectable

00:05:14 no one's ever going to search the car if you're there

00:05:19 so that was really what I did in the Great War

00:05:23 towards the atomic bomb

00:05:25 probably helped a lot

00:05:27 I think though

00:05:30 like all projects of that sort

00:05:32 it was overmanned

00:05:34 everybody was in a hurry

00:05:36 and they fell into the grave error

00:05:38 of thinking that you can solve problems

00:05:40 purely by putting more and more people onto it

00:05:43 but it was all part of the Manhattan Project

00:05:46 oh yes

00:05:47 it was part of the overall Manhattan Project

00:05:48 the uranium separator in that plant

00:05:50 which I had to do

00:05:52 was the uranium that was used in the first of the atomic bombs

00:05:57 that's definite

00:05:59 and I came home after that first bomb had been dropped

00:06:04 and of course my family was in the country

00:06:07 and I had to consider what to do

00:06:13 well I had several offers

00:06:15 I was offered a professorship in Berkeley

00:06:18 I was offered one in Sydney in Australia

00:06:21 they tried very very hard to get me to stay at Imperial College

00:06:27 with a professorship of physical chemistry

00:06:30 which

00:06:32 we're talking a little later in the day

00:06:34 we can reminisce some more about that trip

00:06:37 we can talk about that and fill in some of those gaps

00:06:40 but we're doing pretty well

00:06:42 you just take your line

00:06:44 I know just how you want it

00:06:46 pretty well, McCall

00:07:04 5, 4, 3

00:07:17 so you came back to Imperial College from the United States

00:07:21 how did you travel back?

00:07:23 I came back on the Queen Mary

00:07:26 in company with about 14,000 US troops

00:07:31 it was absolutely awful

00:07:33 I was in officers accommodation

00:07:35 I think we were 8 or 10 in the cabin

00:07:38 3 tier bunks

00:07:40 and there were 2 meals a day

00:07:42 one at 6 in the morning, one at 6 at night

00:07:44 and it was jolly difficult to find any place to sit down

00:07:48 because most of the floor space was covered with poker games

00:07:51 which was just

00:07:54 well, unescorted passengers

00:07:57 on a liner like that

00:07:59 I suppose one didn't worry too much about the possibility of being torpedoed

00:08:03 well, it was a possibility

00:08:05 I wouldn't have been the only one in trouble had anything come

00:08:07 because it took a very long time to have a muster

00:08:10 all deck space was used for sleeping

00:08:15 for the other ranks

00:08:18 how long did the trip take?

00:08:20 I don't remember

00:08:22 it must have been

00:08:24 apart from the zigzagging, it must have been fairly fast

00:08:26 I think it was just over the week

00:08:28 and between the 6 o'clock in the morning meal

00:08:30 and the 6 o'clock in the evening meal

00:08:32 how did you spend your time?

00:08:34 sleeping, sitting

00:08:36 there wasn't much else to do

00:08:38 there wouldn't be much reading material either I have to imagine

00:08:41 no, no

00:08:43 I was on my own and it was a little bit

00:08:45 a little bit heavy going

00:08:47 but you got back to Imperial College

00:08:50 and

00:08:52 almost at once I was

00:08:54 in question what should I do

00:08:56 I really never started up my research

00:08:58 properly at Imperial College

00:09:00 I went back there

00:09:02 I forget for how long

00:09:04 it could have been certainly less than a year

00:09:06 and then I had these various offers

00:09:08 I think I mentioned those to you

00:09:10 didn't I?

00:09:12 and I chose Cambridge

00:09:14 I can't tell you why

00:09:16 but it turned out beautifully of course

00:09:18 and when I got to Cambridge

00:09:20 I had

00:09:22 a little bit

00:09:24 a little bit casual

00:09:26 I didn't even know what my stipend was to be

00:09:28 but it all got right

00:09:30 in the first two or three months

00:09:32 I'd been in the early days of the war

00:09:34 I'd been in some lectures in Cambridge

00:09:36 for

00:09:38 John Denham Jones who

00:09:40 was a theoretical chemist

00:09:42 he'd

00:09:44 he'd been doing special things

00:09:46 I went up for two sets of lectures

00:09:48 on inorganic chemistry

00:09:50 which I gave in my own

00:09:52 field

00:09:54 and I think that was fairly new

00:09:56 for Cambridge

00:10:00 you see in

00:10:02 at Imperial College

00:10:04 I'd been lecturing

00:10:06 very largely

00:10:08 from

00:10:10 the original literature if you know what I mean

00:10:12 by that, there were one or two old books

00:10:14 like Partington's chemistry

00:10:16 where inorganic chemistry was just

00:10:18 a mass of facts that one had

00:10:20 to get the students

00:10:22 somehow to memorise

00:10:24 and by going into the original

00:10:26 literature you could put

00:10:28 life into it as if it were all happening

00:10:30 I think this was fairly popular

00:10:32 with the young men

00:10:34 and I had a colleague, J.S. Anderson

00:10:36 who did much the same

00:10:38 and we published

00:10:40 a book which had

00:10:42 a good long run modern aspect of inorganic

00:10:44 chemistry

00:10:46 that was published

00:10:48 just before the war

00:10:50 and was

00:10:52 translated into German and published in Germany

00:10:54 during the war

00:10:56 and

00:10:58 that I think epitomised

00:11:00 the type of teaching

00:11:02 we did and that I had given here

00:11:04 in Cambridge and that helped me to

00:11:06 get the invitation to come up here

00:11:08 Of all the people

00:11:10 you were working with

00:11:12 in Imperial College during

00:11:14 those days, did you

00:11:16 remain friends with any? Did any of them

00:11:18 go on to distinguished careers?

00:11:22 No

00:11:24 One of the people

00:11:26 in my year

00:11:28 was Pat

00:11:30 Linsted

00:11:32 He of course went on to be President of the

00:11:34 World Society of Chemistry

00:11:36 I don't remember the others

00:11:38 awfully well

00:11:40 Some of the faculty members

00:11:42 I kept

00:11:44 contact with

00:11:46 for a long time

00:11:48 but I don't

00:11:50 I don't really

00:11:52 remember it awfully well

00:11:54 I got very much absorbed in

00:11:56 what I was doing

00:11:58 C.K. Ingold was around

00:12:00 when I was doing my research

00:12:02 and he of course

00:12:04 was a great worker

00:12:06 He and I seemed to finish up usually

00:12:08 most nights about 10.30 together

00:12:12 You remember C.K. Ingold don't you?

00:12:14 He had a lot to do with our society

00:12:18 When you went to Cambridge

00:12:20 life must have changed

00:12:22 quite a lot for the family

00:12:24 because of the environment

00:12:26 around Cambridge

00:12:28 Life would be very much easier

00:12:34 My oldest boy

00:12:36 George

00:12:38 had been

00:12:40 a boarder at the King's Choir School

00:12:42 He

00:12:44 was at battle

00:12:46 with my mother

00:12:48 with Catherine

00:12:50 and

00:12:52 he had one or two bad

00:12:54 experiences going to Hastings

00:12:56 School and through

00:12:58 Hamilton Montgomery here at Cambridge

00:13:00 who looked after my lectures

00:13:02 when I came up

00:13:04 I got him a place at King's

00:13:06 not as a chorister but just as a boarder

00:13:08 and so he was

00:13:10 here already when we came

00:13:12 and John Cockcroft

00:13:14 let us live in his house for

00:13:16 some months when we first arrived

00:13:18 so we had a fairly easy start

00:13:20 and then

00:13:22 rented another house from an old

00:13:24 scientific friend

00:13:26 N.K. Adams, a surface chemist

00:13:28 and finally

00:13:30 we got our own house

00:13:32 and of course it was all

00:13:34 very very different from London

00:13:36 because

00:13:38 one of the things I had to do

00:13:40 when I came was to

00:13:42 become a professorial fellow

00:13:44 of a college

00:13:46 and Sydney

00:13:48 had a vacancy in its quota

00:13:50 and they took me on

00:13:52 and I've been with Sydney ever since

00:13:54 This is Sydney Sussex College

00:13:56 Sydney Sussex College, yes

00:13:58 Now that I've retired

00:14:00 I stay on for life

00:14:02 which is very very pleasant

00:14:04 So you see with the college life

00:14:06 plus the chance of building up

00:14:08 our family life

00:14:10 it really was very good

00:14:12 We had two boys

00:14:14 and two girls

00:14:16 and both boys went to Leeds School

00:14:18 as day boarders

00:14:20 or home boarders

00:14:22 sorry, home boarders

00:14:24 and the girls

00:14:26 one went to Perth

00:14:28 and then went to St Hilda's at Whitby

00:14:30 and the other went to

00:14:32 County School for Girls

00:14:34 and

00:14:38 the kids

00:14:40 George took a degree in chemistry

00:14:42 and is teaching now

00:14:44 teaching chemistry in school

00:14:46 and Kim Bolton

00:14:48 Sydney the second boy

00:14:50 could have gone to college

00:14:52 he didn't want to

00:14:54 he did his service in the Navy

00:14:56 and then went into business

00:14:58 and he's doing reasonably well

00:15:00 and one

00:15:02 Frances was the

00:15:04 artistic one, she couldn't get on

00:15:06 at Perth so she went to St Hilda's

00:15:08 at Whitby which is a lovely school

00:15:10 and she

00:15:12 she's gone

00:15:14 into restoration of

00:15:16 pictures

00:15:18 Martha, who was known to the others

00:15:20 as Daddy's Last Hope

00:15:22 she's the youngest

00:15:24 she got a very good degree in

00:15:26 modern languages here, Spanish and Portuguese

00:15:28 French

00:15:30 and she married

00:15:32 living in Scotland

00:15:34 so the family

00:15:36 life developed in a very

00:15:38 normal way

00:15:40 no hiccups at all

00:15:42 and the work

00:15:44 in Cambridge

00:15:46 did you have to build up a lab

00:15:48 were the facilities in place

00:15:50 well the old lab in

00:15:52 Pembroke Street really was a

00:15:54 ruin, it had been built in the

00:15:56 I think 1890's

00:15:58 very very old

00:16:00 and very cramped

00:16:02 stone staircase from top to bottom

00:16:04 no elevator at all

00:16:06 and

00:16:08 shortly after I

00:16:10 just shortly before

00:16:12 I came here

00:16:14 Lord Todd

00:16:16 came

00:16:18 and he

00:16:20 set about that lab and turned it

00:16:22 upside down

00:16:24 and I think it's true

00:16:26 to say that

00:16:28 it was lighted right through by gas

00:16:30 when he first came

00:16:32 and he got that put right

00:16:34 put electric lighting onto the working benches

00:16:36 the drains were improved

00:16:38 but the

00:16:40 it was cramped and

00:16:42 very very poor building

00:16:44 and within

00:16:46 that setting I soon built up a little group

00:16:48 and we had

00:16:50 I'll tell you about the research we started on

00:16:52 if you're interested

00:16:54 yes please do

00:16:56 really research

00:16:58 arose directly out of

00:17:00 something in the war work

00:17:02 one of the things we'd been

00:17:04 looking at in our work

00:17:06 for Porton was the

00:17:08 incendiary properties of bromine

00:17:10 trifluoride

00:17:12 and we

00:17:14 we had to put this

00:17:16 into a projectile

00:17:18 it's a liquid

00:17:20 as you probably realise

00:17:22 and in the projectile

00:17:24 the shell

00:17:26 a small cannon shell

00:17:28 in flight

00:17:30 yaws and therefore

00:17:32 it's not much good for accurate firing

00:17:34 and the request

00:17:36 came could you make it solid

00:17:38 how do you make

00:17:40 bromine trifluoride solid, it's a liquid

00:17:42 very very nasty aggressive thing

00:17:44 and we

00:17:47 we put in potassium

00:17:49 fluoride and we got a solid

00:17:51 which was almost as

00:17:53 reactive as the bromine fluoride

00:17:55 and that

00:17:57 that was one thing

00:17:59 we looked at it once

00:18:01 and Alan Sharp

00:18:03 one of my first research

00:18:05 students

00:18:07 identified

00:18:09 that solid as the

00:18:11 compound KBRF4

00:18:13 that was

00:18:15 that was the first of the

00:18:17 polyhalide ions

00:18:19 with

00:18:21 fluorine in it

00:18:23 first ever known

00:18:25 and he also

00:18:27 took IF5 as KF

00:18:29 and

00:18:31 that gave him KIF6

00:18:33 again

00:18:35 the IF6 is the anion

00:18:37 was a very very novel

00:18:39 species

00:18:41 and we worked on from that

00:18:43 to

00:18:45 consider the self ionization

00:18:47 of bromine fluoride and of iodine

00:18:49 pentafluoride

00:18:51 and

00:18:53 we prepared

00:18:55 a whole range of new compounds

00:18:57 on the basis that

00:19:01 the self ionization gave

00:19:03 the cation BRF2 plus

00:19:05 and the anion

00:19:07 BRF4 minus

00:19:09 and with those

00:19:11 you would carry a neutralization

00:19:13 reaction to acid plus base giving

00:19:15 a salt plus solvent

00:19:17 BRF3

00:19:19 so this was a major development

00:19:21 it had never been done before

00:19:23 and we were able to

00:19:25 get that launched and

00:19:27 it's been very much

00:19:29 extended later on but

00:19:31 it gave us some very very pretty work

00:19:33 it took some years

00:19:35 to do that

00:19:37 and really the

00:19:39 second of our major

00:19:41 starts

00:19:43 also was to do

00:19:45 with the halogen fluoride because I had one of

00:19:47 the people

00:19:49 studying the chemistry of

00:19:51 bromine fluoride

00:19:53 chlorine trifluoride

00:19:55 iodine pentafluoride

00:19:57 to see how they compared

00:19:59 as fluorinating agents

00:20:01 and what we did was to react

00:20:03 them with things like carbon tetra

00:20:05 iodide, carbon tetra bromide

00:20:07 and carbon tetra chloride

00:20:09 under fairly standard conditions to see

00:20:11 how many of the heavier

00:20:13 halogen could be replaced by fluorine

00:20:15 and

00:20:17 half by chance

00:20:19 we found it was

00:20:21 CI4 and

00:20:23 IF5

00:20:25 we got CF3I

00:20:27 now that

00:20:29 I don't know whether

00:20:31 that means anything to you but

00:20:33 during the war

00:20:35 there was a

00:20:37 development of

00:20:39 a whole new chemistry

00:20:41 where

00:20:43 instead of having carbon and hydrogen

00:20:45 you had carbon and fluorine

00:20:47 and these so called

00:20:49 fluorocarbons

00:20:51 they had some significance in war

00:20:53 projects but

00:20:55 this was a fluorocarbon derivative

00:20:57 which was the analog

00:20:59 of CH3I

00:21:01 and so we got here

00:21:03 for the first time

00:21:05 a substance which should

00:21:07 give a whole

00:21:09 new field of organometallic

00:21:11 chemistry

00:21:13 and we went on from there we found that

00:21:15 CF3I reacted with mercury

00:21:17 to give you HG

00:21:19 CF3 twice

00:21:21 the analog

00:21:23 of dimethylmercury

00:21:25 reacted with

00:21:27 phosphorus, arsenic, sulfur

00:21:29 selenium to give you a whole

00:21:31 string of

00:21:33 CF3 phosphorus compounds

00:21:35 and so on

00:21:37 and this was

00:21:39 a marvellous thing because I got

00:21:41 some very good students

00:21:43 and we just

00:21:45 took

00:21:47 this thing to pieces

00:21:49 and got a lot of

00:21:51 really top class work out

00:21:53 so it was a very productive period for you

00:21:55 very very productive period

00:21:57 I had excellent students

00:21:59 one in particular

00:22:01 I think I must mention was Bob Hazelden

00:22:03 he'd come to me with a PhD

00:22:05 from

00:22:07 Birmingham, he'd been

00:22:09 with Stacy and Howarth

00:22:11 he was a trained organic chemist

00:22:13 and he weighed in

00:22:15 on this and

00:22:17 made a tremendous contribution and later on

00:22:19 he went on to my faculty

00:22:21 and helped very much to develop it

00:22:23 of course he built his own career later on

00:22:25 he went up to Manchester

00:22:27 but they were all

00:22:29 very very good

00:22:31 we didn't

00:22:33 though

00:22:35 make this an exclusive thing

00:22:37 I think

00:22:39 it's probably important to remember that

00:22:41 no two

00:22:43 research students were alike

00:22:45 and

00:22:49 when these youngsters

00:22:51 came to me, the first thing I

00:22:53 tried to do was to get them into some

00:22:55 productive work so that

00:22:57 if possible in the first three months

00:22:59 they got something out and could see

00:23:01 they were getting on

00:23:03 and then to some extent you have to tailor

00:23:05 the problem

00:23:07 to the students particular

00:23:09 interests and aptitudes

00:23:11 and this I was able to do

00:23:13 with this field because

00:23:17 they were able to

00:23:19 many of them were able to

00:23:21 get on with this work in their own way

00:23:23 and in their own schools sometimes

00:23:25 but we had a

00:23:27 fairly wide range of topics

00:23:29 going then and

00:23:31 some of the students didn't want to work on

00:23:33 fluorocarbon chemistry and

00:23:35 take for example

00:23:37 the

00:23:39 two Australians, Norman Greenwood

00:23:41 and Ray Martin, both of them

00:23:43 went right to the top

00:23:45 where they still are

00:23:47 and they did

00:23:49 problems of electrochemistry

00:23:51 did a good job

00:23:53 on it

00:23:55 they're a very good example of how

00:23:57 diversification paid

00:23:59 and Ebbsworth, another

00:24:01 British chemist now

00:24:03 who's right at the top, he worked

00:24:05 on silicon hydride, well he's

00:24:07 he went away from the lab

00:24:09 absolutely free to continue

00:24:11 silicon hydride work, we had no

00:24:13 no interest, there was

00:24:15 plenty of other ideas coming along

00:24:17 he was able to go away and build his own

00:24:19 school of silicon hydride

00:24:21 chemistry, he started first on the faculty

00:24:23 then he went away to Edinburgh

00:24:25 and this was true right along the line

00:24:27 Gordon Stone

00:24:29 is another good example

00:24:31 you know now he's at Bristol

00:24:33 but he worked on boron hydrides

00:24:37 in some way that's what he

00:24:39 wanted to do but I could see that it fitted him

00:24:41 and heaven knows I did

00:24:43 little enough with a man of that

00:24:45 calibre, I did little enough to help him

00:24:47 I think just some little thing

00:24:49 kept him going and cheered them up

00:24:51 when they were down

00:24:53 that's how it all worked out

00:24:55 and I'm very very much

00:24:57 pleased now to look back and see how

00:24:59 many of them did succeed greatly

00:25:01 well as you look around the country

00:25:03 you must

00:25:05 you have former students

00:25:07 in many universities now

00:25:09 oh yes

00:25:11 you've mentioned Ebbsworth, you've mentioned Stone

00:25:13 oh well there were quite a lot of Americans

00:25:15 and Canadians too

00:25:17 New Zealanders

00:25:19 Howard Clarke and

00:25:21 Alan McDiarmid

00:25:23 another PhD

00:25:25 of ours

00:25:27 Cullen

00:25:29 Canada

00:25:31 Bill Miller

00:25:33 not Bill Miller

00:25:35 Jack Miller, he was here

00:25:37 was Haas, Alois Haas

00:25:39 who was a professor at Brockwood, now he did a PhD

00:25:41 and he worked on the SCF3

00:25:43 group

00:25:45 part of the fluorocarbon field

00:25:47 but he took that away

00:25:49 and he's made a great thing of that in Germany

00:25:51 and it did so on

00:25:53 right through, a number of Indians

00:25:55 also did very well

00:25:57 Australians too, New Zealanders

00:25:59 so it's rather like

00:26:01 bringing up a family, one can

00:26:03 in old age look back and

00:26:05 feel rather happy that they have succeeded

00:26:12 when you

00:26:14 about 1946 it was

00:26:16 I think you got the FRS

00:26:18 was that because of the work you'd done

00:26:20 at Imperial College

00:26:22 was that recognition

00:26:24 for that work

00:26:26 I don't know

00:26:28 I never enquire

00:26:30 people don't automatically

00:26:32 become connected to the Royal Society

00:26:34 I think it was just

00:26:36 I had

00:26:38 built up a little bit of

00:26:41 good work I suppose

00:26:43 the Bohr work

00:26:45 the work on

00:26:47 bromine trifluoride

00:26:49 had been published then

00:26:51 it was known anyway

00:26:53 and before the war

00:26:55 we'd had a lot of good success

00:26:57 on silicon hydride chemistry

00:26:59 and of course

00:27:01 there weren't all that many

00:27:03 inorganic chemists

00:27:05 who would have been

00:27:07 eligible, we were just beginning

00:27:09 to spread

00:27:11 when I started

00:27:13 in the 20s

00:27:15 there could have been only 2 or 3 chairs

00:27:17 of inorganic chemistry and gradually

00:27:19 it became

00:27:21 fashionable

00:27:23 or even necessary for each university

00:27:25 to have a professor of inorganic chemistry

00:27:27 but that wasn't so when I started

00:27:29 and I think that's one of the reasons why my boys

00:27:31 were so favourably placed

00:27:33 for jumping into these chairs which they filled admirably

00:27:35 I think

00:27:37 I wouldn't like to discuss

00:27:39 or even to speculate

00:27:41 as to why

00:27:43 one's in the Royal

00:27:45 that's one of the nice things that happens

00:27:47 but it wasn't

00:27:49 the only nice thing

00:27:51 again, that was so quick

00:27:57 it's 11.30

00:28:01 what's your

00:28:05 what's your

00:28:35 ready?

00:28:37 no, hang on a bit

00:28:43 5, 4,

00:28:45 3

00:28:49 can you talk a bit

00:28:51 in a bit more detail about the early days

00:28:53 in Cambridge when you were beginning

00:28:55 this new field of chemistry

00:28:57 yes

00:28:59 yes

00:29:01 well I think one of the great

00:29:03 blessings here

00:29:05 was that facilities

00:29:07 were good and of course

00:29:09 with Todd

00:29:11 as number one

00:29:13 he took over

00:29:15 a lot of the

00:29:17 well almost all the

00:29:19 administrative side of the department

00:29:21 it was a joint department of organic

00:29:23 and inorganic chemistry

00:29:25 with himself as chairman

00:29:27 of that department

00:29:29 and we had an excellent

00:29:31 Mr. Gilson who was

00:29:33 laboratory superintendent

00:29:35 and the first big thing was getting

00:29:37 moved from that awful

00:29:39 old lab in Pembroke Street

00:29:41 the one that Professor Leibing

00:29:43 had built in the 1890s

00:29:45 to the modern building

00:29:47 and that took some time

00:29:49 but

00:29:51 the Lensfield site where we now are

00:29:53 the building

00:29:55 was opened in

00:29:57 1958

00:29:59 the first stage of it

00:30:01 and we moved here with much

00:30:03 better accommodation

00:30:05 and right through the time here

00:30:09 I've had

00:30:11 never

00:30:13 to bother about sponsored

00:30:15 research

00:30:17 see all the

00:30:19 I believe many of my American colleagues

00:30:21 have to make a major issue of this

00:30:23 to try to get money together to

00:30:25 hire pairs of hands

00:30:27 and supply materials

00:30:29 we've always had

00:30:31 plenty of students who brought

00:30:33 their own money in government grants

00:30:35 and particularly

00:30:37 we've had some

00:30:39 major grants for

00:30:41 big pieces of equipment

00:30:43 so we've ended up with a very easy

00:30:45 running department

00:30:47 well equipped

00:30:49 and no time lost in

00:30:51 bothering about

00:30:53 how to get higher help

00:30:55 and all the usual

00:30:57 things of that type

00:30:59 that's one of the major

00:31:01 factors in working here

00:31:03 in Cambridge and in most other

00:31:05 universities in this country

00:31:07 I think it's getting more tough now

00:31:09 but right through my time it was very very

00:31:11 agreeable

00:31:13 So even when you arrived here

00:31:15 in Cambridge in 1945

00:31:17 you had always

00:31:19 adequate money to pursue the

00:31:21 research you wanted to pursue

00:31:23 all I wanted was glass

00:31:25 building vacuum lines and

00:31:27 liquid air or liquid nitrogen

00:31:29 was available

00:31:31 and we

00:31:33 the physical space was very

00:31:35 poor then but we got on

00:31:37 and did quite well

00:31:39 and by the time we moved to

00:31:41 this laboratory in 1958

00:31:43 we'd done

00:31:45 quite a lot on those

00:31:47 fields I've already mentioned to you

00:31:49 the interhalogen compound

00:31:51 and

00:31:53 the

00:31:55 new field of organometallics

00:31:57 with fluorinated radicals

00:31:59 Did you have any time

00:32:01 for an active social life

00:32:03 in the early days in Cambridge while you were

00:32:05 in the old lab in Pembroke Street?

00:32:09 Well I think most of my research students

00:32:11 would

00:32:13 recall being told that they wouldn't be missed

00:32:15 on a Wednesday afternoon if they were

00:32:17 not in the lab

00:32:19 and I

00:32:21 one of my first acts

00:32:23 through the master of my college was to

00:32:25 become a life member of the

00:32:27 University Rugby Club and of the University

00:32:29 Cricket Club which of course gave me

00:32:31 a magnificent chance to see top class

00:32:33 games

00:32:35 we had

00:32:37 a college life

00:32:39 I gradually worked my

00:32:41 way into that and of course

00:32:43 it is a very very agreeable

00:32:45 and

00:32:47 happy sort of association because

00:32:49 all my colleagues are from different faculties

00:32:51 and

00:32:53 it was all very new and

00:32:55 it took a few years to get

00:32:57 to get the hang of it but

00:32:59 now of course I'm

00:33:01 rank among the old timers

00:33:03 And you always kept up your interest

00:33:05 in country life

00:33:07 you said you'd enjoyed very much growing up

00:33:09 in the country and you said this has been a lifelong

00:33:11 interest

00:33:13 Well yes I think

00:33:15 that mostly

00:33:17 came out in travel

00:33:19 I've

00:33:21 got a great deal

00:33:23 into the Alps

00:33:25 I liked

00:33:27 mountains

00:33:29 I had a chance when I was in college

00:33:31 to go with some students on trips

00:33:33 we had one or two climbing trips

00:33:35 in the Silveretta group

00:33:37 but later on I always

00:33:39 went in preference to

00:33:41 the mountains, the Alps

00:33:43 and into Italy

00:33:45 and France further south

00:33:49 and I kept up by

00:33:51 fishing

00:33:53 I took

00:33:55 pennies a bit more

00:33:57 I had a chance to get salmon

00:33:59 and trout

00:34:01 and that's an activity which

00:34:03 I'm having to taper it off now

00:34:05 because I'm not all that fit

00:34:07 Where did you do your fishing?

00:34:09 Well there's some fishing

00:34:11 around here, a big reservoir

00:34:13 at Ireland

00:34:15 West of Ireland

00:34:17 You had some interesting

00:34:19 trips to Ireland didn't you?

00:34:21 Oh yes, yes

00:34:23 We went out to County Mayo

00:34:25 one of my great friends here was

00:34:27 Dr. Tom Hayne

00:34:29 and he was a

00:34:31 great authority on

00:34:33 Yates and had a summer school

00:34:35 in

00:34:37 Sligo

00:34:39 and I joined him

00:34:41 after the summer school

00:34:43 we went down to Mayo

00:34:45 to Lewisburg

00:34:47 fished there for sea trout and salmon

00:34:49 that was a great thing

00:34:51 and the one or two gravel pits

00:34:53 in the background here

00:34:55 there's quite a lot of chance to

00:34:57 of course fishing means seeing wild things

00:34:59 they go together

00:35:01 beautifully

00:35:03 Did you fish from land

00:35:05 or did you go out and about?

00:35:07 Well in Ireland mostly boat fishing

00:35:09 I've done both though

00:35:11 had some fishing on the

00:35:13 wye from the banks and wading

00:35:15 but

00:35:17 Never had any spills when you've been out in the boat?

00:35:19 Boat never capsized?

00:35:21 No, no, no

00:35:23 I don't

00:35:25 I can't swim

00:35:27 It's getting a little difficult now

00:35:29 to get in and out, I don't think I can do that now

00:35:31 Did you have any other hobbies

00:35:33 that you kept up over the years

00:35:35 or was it mainly fishing

00:35:37 and rugby

00:35:39 I had as much garden as I could handle

00:35:41 As much?

00:35:43 Garden, I liked that

00:35:45 that's always been a hobby

00:35:47 that too is getting a little more difficult now

00:35:49 but

00:35:51 a good vegetable garden

00:35:53 and good roses

00:35:55 and fruit

00:35:57 it's very nice

00:35:59 so you see all those things added up together

00:36:01 to make a

00:36:03 very nicely balanced existence here

00:36:05 I did pretty good

00:36:07 days working in the lab

00:36:09 and managed the other things on the side

00:36:11 and

00:36:15 there's really not much more to say

00:36:17 I'd say that

00:36:19 most people here have a similar sort of

00:36:21 experience I think

00:36:25 And your wife never regretted

00:36:27 having left the United States

00:36:29 did she ever feel homesick?

00:36:31 Oh I

00:36:33 she never complained about it

00:36:35 but I'm quite sure she was sometimes

00:36:37 yes it must have

00:36:39 it was a great

00:36:41 problem for her

00:36:43 I know sometimes

00:36:45 she had her mother

00:36:47 and she was over there a number of times

00:36:49 I've been back quite a bit

00:36:51 in fact

00:36:53 I've managed to travel

00:36:55 as most professors do

00:36:57 into all sorts of

00:36:59 places Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia

00:37:01 and so on

00:37:05 I think most of the European countries

00:37:07 and

00:37:09 US and Canada

00:37:11 I've been over in the US a great deal

00:37:13 partly for

00:37:15 public lectures for National Science Foundation

00:37:17 and

00:37:19 universities

00:37:21 I had the

00:37:23 Baker Fisher Lectureship at Cornell

00:37:25 in 56

00:37:27 that was a big one

00:37:29 I've also been

00:37:31 in Marquette

00:37:33 for a semester

00:37:35 and

00:37:37 Idaho

00:37:39 connections there

00:37:41 very good fishing there too

00:37:43 and in

00:37:45 Vancouver

00:37:47 Marquette also

00:37:49 awarded you an honorary doctorate

00:37:51 Yes that was

00:37:53 one of several

00:37:55 I have great admiration for Marquette

00:37:57 it's a wonderful place

00:37:59 Cold in the winter?

00:38:01 Yes

00:38:03 as cold as I want it

00:38:05 it really is a very bleak

00:38:07 place in the winter

00:38:09 I was there right through

00:38:11 what they call a good winter

00:38:13 a typical winter

00:38:15 No I think you know

00:38:17 it

00:38:19 honorary doctorate

00:38:21 membership

00:38:23 memberships of this and that

00:38:25 academy they're very very nice

00:38:27 things to come along

00:38:29 but really one doesn't

00:38:31 set out for any sort

00:38:33 of deliberate pot hunting

00:38:35 they just happen

00:38:37 and I'm greatly honoured

00:38:39 and greatly appreciate such things

00:38:41 but most people

00:38:43 are like that aren't they

00:38:45 I think so. Looking back

00:38:47 over a very

00:38:49 distinguished chemical career

00:38:51 what would you say

00:38:53 was the single most important

00:38:55 contribution

00:38:57 made by you and your group

00:39:01 I think the most important

00:39:03 thing we did was

00:39:05 breaking open the field of

00:39:07 organometallics

00:39:09 where fluorocarbons were

00:39:11 in the molecule

00:39:13 because that

00:39:15 was literally a new branch of chemistry

00:39:17 and it's been

00:39:19 up worldwide

00:39:21 and it's still

00:39:23 moving very rapidly

00:39:25 that I think was the

00:39:27 top that we reached

00:39:35 it's a very very pretty field because

00:39:37 there's enormous scope for different

00:39:39 techniques to come into it

00:39:41 and

00:39:43 fluorine is so different

00:39:45 as an element from

00:39:47 the other halogens

00:39:49 that you

00:39:51 can never quite tell what's going to happen

00:39:53 it's one of those elements

00:39:55 when you get into its chemistry

00:39:57 it's always worthwhile trying

00:39:59 a thing, don't just say

00:40:01 don't even bother with theory

00:40:03 just try it and with fluorine

00:40:05 something pretty well

00:40:07 always happens and it can be

00:40:09 something very unexpected and

00:40:11 exciting

00:40:13 that's what we've been finding and I think

00:40:15 lots of other fluorine chemists are finding the same things

00:40:17 it's just their own fascination

00:40:19 have there been any useful

00:40:21 applications of this sort of work?

00:40:25 well I

00:40:27 I don't really think

00:40:29 I have, no

00:40:35 in a sense all background

00:40:37 knowledge is good to have

00:40:39 we've never had

00:40:41 never had our research projects

00:40:43 oriented towards applications

00:40:47 I think

00:40:49 I think that

00:40:51 I can't recall any single

00:40:53 thing that we've done which has any

00:40:55 direct application but I think sometimes

00:40:57 what we've done has been useful

00:40:59 I mean there are

00:41:01 fluorinated

00:41:03 drugs

00:41:05 and chemicals in that field

00:41:07 which

00:41:09 I suppose you have to start somewhere

00:41:11 you might claim some of them are

00:41:13 distantly related to the early work we did

00:41:15 on fluorinated

00:41:17 substances

00:41:19 but I don't think I should

00:41:21 I'd like to claim any

00:41:23 credit for applications

00:41:25 not in the same sense as an organic

00:41:27 chemist who develops new

00:41:29 techniques for making

00:41:31 natural products

00:41:33 that's a totally different kettle of fish

00:41:35 your colleagues

00:41:37 today of course

00:41:39 find they're under a great deal

00:41:41 of pressure to direct

00:41:43 the research

00:41:45 towards the applied field

00:41:47 so

00:41:49 in a way do you think that it was easier

00:41:51 twenty, thirty

00:41:53 years ago

00:41:57 well I suppose

00:41:59 had I thought

00:42:01 it I could have

00:42:03 got projects for industry

00:42:05 I see I would probably

00:42:07 have had things that we could have done

00:42:09 which would remotely have been of direct interest

00:42:11 to them

00:42:13 but there's no sort of pressure at all

00:42:15 on me or on anyone that I know of

00:42:17 to work

00:42:19 in that way

00:42:21 it is increasing

00:42:23 the pressure now is there

00:42:25 and my colleagues

00:42:27 around the university

00:42:29 mention it quite often they have got now

00:42:31 to try and fund their research

00:42:33 by doing things that are of direct interest

00:42:35 to industry

00:42:37 I was a consultant

00:42:39 to several undertakings

00:42:41 to ICI

00:42:43 and two branches of ICI

00:42:45 British Titan Products and Borax

00:42:47 Consolidated but

00:42:49 with those there was never any suggestion

00:42:51 that I should do any work that was

00:42:53 directly related to their research

00:42:55 projects

00:42:59 you've also had a number of

00:43:01 distinguished awards

00:43:03 the American Chemical Society Awards

00:43:07 yes

00:43:09 the

00:43:11 Inorganic Chemistry Award

00:43:13 in 1978

00:43:15 I went to Anaheim for that

00:43:17 and

00:43:19 well I've got to go out next

00:43:21 month to the

00:43:23 Toronto meeting

00:43:25 for

00:43:27 an award for

00:43:29 what is it called

00:43:31 creative work in

00:43:33 fluorine chemistry

00:43:35 that's something

00:43:37 the official title that I

00:43:39 received there

00:43:41 do you know who is sponsoring that award

00:43:43 I don't know

00:43:45 it's an award that was

00:43:47 with the Division of Fluorine Chemistry

00:43:49 but I think this year has been

00:43:51 for the first time made open

00:43:53 for worldwide

00:43:55 competition

00:43:57 I don't know who is sponsoring it

00:43:59 in Toronto

00:44:03 and you also had

00:44:05 quite a close association

00:44:07 with the

00:44:09 Chemical Society and the

00:44:11 Royal Institute of Chemistry

00:44:13 the parent bodies of the Royal Society of Chemistry

00:44:15 you were president

00:44:17 of both the Chemical Society and

00:44:19 of the Royal Institute of Chemistry

00:44:21 yes

00:44:23 well I don't

00:44:25 I don't

00:44:27 I don't really remember

00:44:29 a whole lot about my presidency

00:44:31 of either body

00:44:33 obviously one takes the chair

00:44:35 at the meetings and does one best with

00:44:37 particularly with the Royal Institute of

00:44:39 Chemistry visiting local sections

00:44:41 that's one of the activities I really

00:44:43 thoroughly enjoyed but I don't

00:44:45 think there's a lot

00:44:47 I don't think the president has

00:44:49 a lot of influence on the

00:44:51 or had a lot

00:44:53 a lot of influence on the affairs

00:44:55 I think since the merger probably the presidential

00:44:57 office has become more

00:44:59 more important in the running

00:45:01 of the society

00:45:05 see when I started

00:45:07 I went to my first

00:45:09 Chemical Society meeting in 1921

00:45:11 and

00:45:13 those were the days when we met

00:45:15 in the old lecture theatre with

00:45:17 a short row in the front with

00:45:19 distinguished people

00:45:21 which one seemed to have the privilege

00:45:23 of shutting their eyes when they wanted to

00:45:25 it was quite

00:45:27 a sight to see people like

00:45:29 G.G. Morgan and Cedric

00:45:31 and Larry dozing off

00:45:33 but they were very alert when a question

00:45:35 was asked and in those days

00:45:37 they served

00:45:39 coffee afterwards and

00:45:41 there was

00:45:45 there was

00:45:47 a chance for youngsters like myself

00:45:49 to read papers, I read several of my

00:45:51 early bits of research

00:45:53 as a paper at the Chemical Society

00:45:55 and

00:45:57 well it was

00:45:59 a totally different atmosphere

00:46:01 I would say

00:46:03 and the staff was much much smaller

00:46:05 Mr. Carr was the secretary

00:46:07 and I

00:46:09 you must check this with

00:46:11 Mr. Rakeem but I should think

00:46:13 the staff numbered

00:46:15 probably less than a dozen

00:46:17 or so people told

00:46:19 and it was really

00:46:21 very very primitive

00:46:23 in the business sense

00:46:25 and the Royal Institute of Chemistry was rather similar

00:46:27 that was getting a little bigger because that came afterwards

00:46:31 Looking back is there any

00:46:33 one individual

00:46:35 you would say had

00:46:37 the most significant influence

00:46:39 on your life?

00:46:43 Well I'm afraid there is only one answer

00:46:45 my mother

00:46:47 and I don't doubt that

00:46:49 that was so because her

00:46:51 her

00:46:53 faith and ambition was just

00:46:55 marvellous

00:46:57 she really meant

00:46:59 much to all of us

00:47:01 and I think it's

00:47:03 if you mean

00:47:05 in scientific work

00:47:07 well I think Baker was the

00:47:09 great influence

00:47:11 And he was at Imperial College

00:47:13 and he was

00:47:15 a marvellously generous old man

00:47:17 I

00:47:19 I remember

00:47:23 when our first child came

00:47:25 he gave us a

00:47:27 cheque to help out with things

00:47:29 that's the sort of thing he would do

00:47:31 it wasn't only that

00:47:33 he was always

00:47:35 always kind

00:47:37 and always thoughtful

00:47:39 and completely

00:47:41 unselfish about publication

00:47:43 yet he was always there

00:47:45 to help you know

00:47:47 H.P. Baker was

00:47:49 a really great man

00:47:53 You had a chance early in your career

00:47:55 to go into industry, obviously you've never

00:47:57 regretted it

00:47:59 No, that was

00:48:01 that was in 1929

00:48:05 I was offered £500 a year

00:48:07 to go to Billingham

00:48:09 and I turned that down

00:48:11 and went to Princeton instead

00:48:15 I should think if I had gone into industry

00:48:17 I might have been a flop

00:48:19 I would have done very well

00:48:21 but I would have certainly prospered

00:48:23 for a few years

00:48:29 Well

00:48:31 it is a different world

00:48:33 and in retrospect

00:48:35 I certainly wouldn't

00:48:37 have stayed away from it

00:48:41 Looking back through

00:48:43 the students you've passed

00:48:45 through your labs

00:48:47 is there one particular

00:48:49 that you would say

00:48:51 had gone on to

00:48:53 make a major contribution

00:48:55 or just a large number of them

00:48:59 I think a large number of them

00:49:01 very very

00:49:03 difficult to pick out one

00:49:05 from all that number

00:49:09 No I

00:49:11 in fact I would be quite positive

00:49:13 there was not one

00:49:15 who was other than

00:49:17 very very distinguished

00:49:19 and they've all done well

00:49:25 Good

00:49:27 Have it sorted out there

00:49:31 Does that fill in a bit of the

00:49:33 I think so

00:49:35 You look weary

00:49:39 There are two things

00:49:41 I'd like to do before

00:49:43 you break totally

00:49:45 I'd like to get a couple of shots

00:49:47 of the outside

00:49:49 of the building

00:49:51 and set up one where

00:49:53 you're walking

00:49:55 inside of the building

00:49:57 and then perhaps down

00:49:59 one of the hallways

00:50:01 Okay

00:50:07 Yes

00:50:09 So you want me to

00:50:11 pick questions out of this

00:50:15 Just give me any

00:50:17 any six or eight questions

00:50:19 Any six or eight

00:50:21 And then we'll just do some ones

00:50:23 where you're just seated

00:50:25 Okay

00:50:27 Hold on

00:50:29 Alright

00:50:51 Okay

00:50:53 Was there any particular

00:50:55 teacher at school

00:50:57 who interested you in chemistry

00:51:01 Can I do that again

00:51:07 Was there any particular teacher

00:51:09 at school who interested you

00:51:11 in science or in chemistry

00:51:13 Okay

00:51:23 Can you tell me

00:51:25 what life was like as a student

00:51:27 at Imperial College before the war

00:51:37 Can you tell me

00:51:39 what it was like as a student

00:51:41 at Imperial College in London before the war

00:51:45 Do that one

00:51:55 I'm looking to see

00:51:57 if I can get something that's a good question

00:51:59 to ask

00:52:03 How did you make the decision

00:52:05 to take up a position in Germany

00:52:07 Okay

00:52:09 Question

00:52:13 You met your wife in rather an interesting way

00:52:15 through folk dancing, didn't you

00:52:37 The project you were working on

00:52:39 in the United States was actually part of

00:52:41 the Manhattan Project, wasn't it

00:52:51 How did you travel back

00:52:53 from the United States

00:52:59 How are we doing

00:53:01 Perfect

00:53:09 When you got back to London

00:53:11 you didn't stay at Imperial College

00:53:13 for very long

00:53:21 Can you tell me

00:53:23 what the facilities in Cambridge

00:53:25 were like when you arrived here

00:53:27 in 1945

00:53:29 Sorry

00:53:31 I'll do that again

00:53:33 Can you tell me what the facilities

00:53:35 in Cambridge were like when you arrived back here

00:53:37 in 1945

00:53:47 Many of your former students

00:53:49 have gone on to fairly senior

00:53:51 positions in chemistry

00:53:53 departments in this country

00:53:59 Okay

00:54:01 You can go back

00:54:03 and do some more if you like, Robert

00:54:13 Let's just get a few

00:54:15 reaction questions

00:54:21 Good

00:54:23 I finally get you on tape doing that

00:54:25 Oh you didn't

00:54:29 That's good

00:54:47 I'll give you something a little more offensive

00:54:51 Pretty much proves

00:54:59 I appreciate it

00:55:13 Look down at your left

00:55:15 like you're looking at your questions

00:55:17 and then look back up

00:55:23 Now you're getting the hang of it

00:55:29 Done

00:55:45 That's enough

00:55:49 I hope that's enough